Rosie Ward This is Show Up As a Leader, a show from people forward network, helping you maximize your positive impact on the world by becoming your best, fully authentic self. All right, strap on your bootstraps for an incredible conversation that I had with Jethro Lloyd, CEO President of iLab. Tere is such great nuggets in this conversation.

And wait till you hear how he talks about in his passion about why it is necessary for leaders today to show their human side versus trying to be a superhero. And you're also going to love how he talks about. Rallying the wisdom and the talents and the gifts of everybody in the organization and how to do that.

And we had some good times during the quick question section, I think you're going to walk away inspired. You are going to walk away with a new appreciation. Your journey as a leader moment by moment, embracing the squiggles, embracing the detours and showing up as your real authentic self Jethro. The first question I have to ask you, because I know there's such energy and passion behind it is why do you think it is necessary for leaders today to show their human side versus trying to be.

For many of

Jethro Lloyd: us that grew up maybe in the eighties and the nineties, I think the image or the notion of a superhero was one with art, the ability to fail and the biggest problem with the superhero images, if you are inspirational and you try to lead the next generation, or you try to inspire people, if you do not have any ability to fail or show some kind of vulnerability people can't connect.

So you remain so separate and so segregated from your team members and maybe those people that you really try to inspire because they're looking at you and they're saying this person never fails. This person is perfect. They get everything right. A hundred percent of the time. And, and I think if you don't show your human side, they need to understand your story because there is no.

That has been successful a hundred percent of the time. And truthfully success is a series of failures until you reach success. It's like great ideas. Everybody has this assumption, that all great ideas come from a single moment. That is single event. I remember growing up thinking about our communities and this crazy insane Greek fella running through the streets, naked screaming, Eureka, because he had discovered something, but he'd probably been thinking.

For months on end and never could articulate it. And then a single moment in time gave him that idea. So for me, showing some level of vulnerability and the ability for you to show that you don't get everything right. A welcomes people into your world. So it allows them to be part of your solution or part of your business or part of what your company.

It doesn't make you less inspirational. It makes you more inspirational. It makes you somebody more likely to follow. All the greatest leaders have failed. All the greatest leaders are human, and it's how they express that humanity is really how much you get inspired.

Rosie Ward There's so much about that, that I just love.

And I think with Bernay Brown's popularity increasing and showing that vulnerability isn't weakness and that we do need a different type of leadership style than we had in the eighties. What's so interesting though, is I run across so many people who conceptually they get it, but then they think vulnerability is a weakness or they think that well it's okay for other people, but it's not okay for me.

So what would you say to those people, or how do you inspire people to. Show that human side that might be a little scared of it

Jethro Lloyd: grew up in South Africa way boys don't cry. So it was very much that day. We are lining up to, to run into a rugby field, but if. Throw ourselves at each other and be very physical integrative with each other and Sydney, the opposite side of that as well.

You don't cry. Okay. So real men don't cry. Okay. And that's what we were raised with. I don't think vulnerability is the excuse to cry at everything. I think vulnerability is about showing what you really strong at, what you're really good at and being able to be vulnerable to express your. Inability or something that you can't do.

And I don't think vulnerability is a sign of weakness if expressed in a manner in which you showing that you're welcoming somebody in to support you to lift up that vulnerability or that potential shortfall. Because if you're a leader and you have a perception, you do the best kid in the classroom.

You're wrong. You're the leader because you've stepped up with certain abilities and characteristics that define you as a leader, but the bigger part of your leadership is the vulnerability to say, maybe I'm not really good at the people management components, or really, maybe I'm not a good guy when it comes to the planning part of my business and expressing that it'd be able to express it as opposed to having that attitude good at everything.

And everybody is subservient to me and. Allowed them to beat it. I think that's where the failing is. I think it's the ability to connect with people on a layer below sort of the transactional layer that we tend to connect in prisons in vulnerability is also the ability to have some level of empathy, to understand where somebody might come from or why they've assessed the situation a certain way or solve the problem.

So my advice to those people that have a struggle with, with vulnerabilities, you've got to try it first before you quit on it. And you've got to give it a chance. And as much as we expecting our employees to trust us, you have to take the chance to trust them and how they going to express themselves with.

Rosie Ward Oh, absolutely. If we want people to be showing up and speaking up and sharing the ideas and all those things that actually are hugely vulnerable at work, but the people leaders in the organization aren't willing to make it safe to do so, or they aren't doing that. It's not going to happen. So speaking of speaking up, and this is a good segue, you talk about needing to create an environment where people can speak through failures and you talk about being able to fail.

And it reminds me of. When it comes up for me is that you're talking about really creating this environment of psychological safety. Why is that so important for you? The

Jethro Lloyd: military designs, the structures for a reason because they designed these structures for a specific purpose and a specific design.

And in that the concept of somebody taking orders when given an order and executing an order, I understand the value in the port and the criticality of that kind of design, I think in business, Not every problem is a massive problem, but the business is a series of small events that occurred conspire against each other.

Some massive failure or some massive event I've never, ever heard of anybody saying that. The reason why we failed was because we didn't listen to that guy who was the intern, but the truth of the matter is they probably fired because they didn't listen to that. The third intern, all the lady, Rosie who was standing there and had this great idea, it was a whole series of bad communication.

Or should I say the lack of allowing communication or the lack of allowing presenting ideas? We've all worked in it. We've set an environment. Somebody says let's hear everybody's ideas. And then the first person that says something, somebody next to them or somebody else's, that's a rubbish idea. You can't do that.

And they dismiss it. But the principle of irrespective of what you still dismiss. And if you do not create an environment where you actively believe in yourself, and it's not only me as a leader, but it's everybody that calls themselves a leader or somebody that's responsible to taking care of people in the organization.

If they're not. And actively creating an environment. People come up with ideas, the choosing the mandates, some of the best ideas come from people that are at the coalface, some of the best ideas and some of the most simplistic ideas come from those people that are absolutely immersed in experiencing what you debating and if you're not listening to them.

And what I mean by listening to genuinely. You have to listen without ego. And that's the other thing. Cause you know what, there's going to be people who can come up with better ideas. And if you can't get over there, then you have no business leading. So from my perspective, one of the biggest reasons I to learn and I was not good at it when I first started, because I was a young, a young man was all ego and no brains and people would come up with ideas and I probably dismissed so many great ideas because it was almost why didn't I come up with that idea.

So I'm not going to listen to it. My belief is, and I don't get it a hundred percent right to this day. And I try every day is you've got to listen. You've got to listen with the genuine ear. I'm listening because that's what the playbooks is. I must do if I'm in need of,

Rosie Ward so you said you didn't always lead this way and growing up in not having vulnerability be something that was embraced.

So what was the turning point for you? Or how did you shift in terms of how you're showing up as a leader and the things you're speaking about?

Jethro Lloyd: When you young, you tend to be all about yourself and then you do crazy things and get married and have kids. And then your kid comes along and your kid shows you that actually you're their leader.

So you're responsible for everything, their food, their lodging, and quite importantly, ironically enough, their emotional wellbeing, because it turns out that you talk about a superhero for your kid. When they look at you, you're wearing a Cape and you've got a shield and you're like, amazing. It was a combination of that.

And some of the, the closest people that I work with realizing how lucky I was to have them in my life. And I have to change the way I work with them to get the best out of them because I'm missing out as much as the company's missing out. So why briefings my child was that's the vulnerability part. So the importance of thinking about vulnerability.

Your kid's not impressed with the car that you drive or what your position might be in your company, or how much money you think you worth or not worth or whatever it might be. They don't care about any of that. They really only care what you think about that moment. How are you assessing something that's important to them?

And not that your colleagues are the same, but all of us work on that same.

Rosie Ward It's creating an environment where people can break past their barriers and show upgrade and make an impact. And there's a lot that goes into that, right? We have to make it safe. We have to model the way which gets into the, this whole podcast is about showing up as a leader.

And really we firmly believe that leadership is not a title or a role. It is really a set of behaviors and it's about how we lead ourselves. And then how do we create that space for others and people who actually are leaders? Have an additional level of responsibility, right? Because you have all these people within your span of care.

And when you were talking about parenting, it reminds me of Bob Chapman, the CEO, Barry Waymiller always talks about everybody is somebody's precious child. And are we viewing people like that in our organization? However many hours a day, whether virtually or in person, you have these people within your span of care and they're somebody's precious child.

And would you want your child. Right. Being treated that way. And he was my first interview on this podcast over a year ago. So it just makes me think about the mindset that we have of, yeah. You know, what, if we surround ourselves with greatness and we let other people's greatness shine, it's not about us when we can elevate that in others and give that space.

Like, man, there's a lot of good stuff that can be.

Jethro Lloyd: I have a mentor and a friend that I work with, although we don't work in the same company, we work in the same group. And he's adamant about the concept of title versus. And I think you've touched on it, where leaders is responsible is showing up as that leader is expressing themselves and behaving accordingly.

And his argument was too many people are too busy, adding titles and great narratives to the back of the name as to what am I, who am I? And everybody must know that in their behaviors, they're not behaving accordingly. And I've always kept that close bond. And I say to my team, say, if you're going to be.

I understand that you crossing over into space where now you're responsible. Now, the care you have a duty and Kay to everybody that you have not chosen to leave. That's your primary responsibility? Not did they rock up to work at eight o'clock in the morning? And did they leave at five and I'm monitoring.

Because it's not eight o'clock and it's now five. And if that's the way you doing stuff you failed before you've even started, because that's not where we work today. But I like the concept that it's somebody's child. The only negative thing is there's a specific of this. What is a precious child? These are strong adults that are probably highly qualified in many instances.

And I think where I agree is we tend to forget that. And for some reason we were so conscientious of the way we treat children, but yet we become adult. And we don't become conscientious of the way we treat our peers or our people that we work with. And we very callous and, and I think the mindset of saying, if you're a Nita, you've gotta be cognizant of that.

You're important. You're important to them and they should be important to you.

Rosie Ward So, how do you instill that mindset and those behaviors across your organization? Because a lot of it's to your point, it's a journey and it's learned, and in many cases it's counterintuitive from what many of us learned growing up.

So we have to unlearn things and we have to relearn things to be able to show up and show our humanity and to make it not about us and to elevate the gifts of others and not be threatened by it. And the list goes on. Yeah.

Jethro Lloyd: That's what you're doing every single day. So that's the entire reason why you exist as a leader.

That's the entire reason what should get you up in the morning. It doesn't come natural for people. Some people may introverts, but great leaders. Some people are great extroverts, but very selfish. So it depends. You have to, ACP example is best that you can, and you've got to reiterate. The balancing of the conversation with it's numbers, it's targets, it's op cams, but it's also people it's well-being it's responsibility.

And if you forget all those metrics, if you only focus on a numbers metric, which is common, we're going to make profits, which is what she did for it's a business we've got to make margins, we've got to meet those deadlines. All those are very important, but. Look at the other side of that scale and don't balance the two, you will not meet your numbers.

You will never meet your goals. You'll never hit your deadlines. You've got to set the example, but you've got to reiterate and you've got to work at it. And everything is a relationship for many of us. We're in a relationship. It's an active process. And again, your kids don't care what you are feeling or how tired you might be.

They need you. They want. Tell you something they want to impress you. There's so many things that they'd happened. And as a leader, unfortunately, you can show the vulnerability, but you still have to be that leader for those people. And you have to be there for your team

Rosie Ward showing your vulnerability. I think that some of the things that you said.

So appreciate one, that success, isn't a straight line. It's a series of multiple events. I would say it's a very squiggly line detour. And I would say once you get to whatever you call success, right? However you define it. It's still like a squiggly journey, right? It's oh, you get to a spot and you check the box and you've made it.

I think we, to your point, we just keep getting better. We become better versions of ourselves. Hopefully each day we become, you know, have a better impact. On the world today than we did yesterday. And we just keep looking for ways to be better. That being said, one of the things that I've also learned in my work is that no matter how much work we've done in ourselves, no matter how much we believe in being human and being vulnerable and listening, it gets hard sometimes.

And we can get in our own way. So what I'm curious about Jethro is what is a self limiting story that. Sometimes still tell yourself. And when it shows up, how do you move beyond it? So you can still show up as a leader.

Jethro Lloyd: The biggest thing that happens to you is you get bogged down with the day to day or what your job entails or what the company has and a self-reflection or the ability to take a step back and say, am I doing this the best way I could or whatever it is.

I don't know if it's true for all, but there are many moments, not many, but there are few moments that happen over the year when things are pretty tough. Cause everybody has those tough days or whatever it is, where you look at yourself in the mirror and say, have you actually done. No, you still that 25 year old kid who, you know, you need to find somebody to help you.

You need a mentor, you need to ask somebody, you need to, you can't do this. You're not good enough. And I don't think I've ever met anybody that's accused of successful. Then after maybe a few drinks or a moment of vulnerability, doesn't admit the days that they wake up and they're like, I don't know how to solve this problem.

I didn't even have the first clue of where to start. The self limiting is the belief in. And I think that goes for everybody. So whether you're starting out your career, where you look up that ladder and you see how far you got to go to maybe achieve your goals, the reality is every time you get up the ladder you look up and it seems like it's as far as it was when you were younger.

And what I will do when I'm lucky is I've got enough friends that have been printed for many years and family that will always ground me and remind me. Looking back at the things that you have gotten and what you facing forward, you will get. But as a self limited for myself, um, it's just that self doc that then on the odd occasion sits in that little terrible little voice that says no, but you've got to surround yourself with the people that will remind you of what you have got in what you can do and where you can go.

So I think it speaks to that support and why reference some people having. Coaches and all that you need that person, everybody needs a person or people to get to and mind different people. And I'm very lucky to have them in my life, but I think.

Rosie Ward I always say that this isn't a soul journey and we don't do things in a bubble.

And I think that as much as we absolutely need people who can remind us of our gifts and remind us who we are, when we get lost from that version, we also need people who we know will be real with us. And aluminate our blind spots. And tell us when we're being a Butthead or when we're playing it small or when we're getting our own way, because we need that.

Sometimes I'm so thankful that I have people that call me on my crap because of. I'm doing it again. Okay. Thank you. We need to be able to receive feedback or receive hard truths as much as we need to be skilled at giving them. And I think that's another thing that I've seen with leaders at all levels, whether they're formal or informal leaders is, oh, maybe I'm okay at giving feedback or maybe I have areas to improve, but then I don't want to, I don't want to.

The feedback or I'm going to get defensive. When I received the feedback or when someone tells me I'm playing it smaller, I did something that wasn't helpful or hurtful or whatever that I don't want to. I don't want to hear it. That doesn't help.

Jethro Lloyd: But don't you find a Rosie that when it's a hundred percent truthful, often the time when you most responsive or most reactive, when you know, it's not true, you can strike it off.

And you're like that person's opinion new kid, but when they get to the core and they go, this is the situation, this is how you didn't have a look. And this is what you said that was wrong, or they're absolutely right. But what I'm going to do naturally is I'm going to defend myself. But again, as long as you're thinking about it and wanting to do something different, I think that's important.

I've worked with many people and I've had them in as my colleagues. And I've had them as my team members where, when they go through that, self-reflection the first thing they do is they flip it over and they said was the other person's fault. And for me, I think that's a dangerous. Response to every situation.

And what I mean by that is those colleagues and those friends or ex colleagues and friends, if you are constantly focusing on blaming other people for something that has gone wrong or things that have not worked out at every point, you were a player in that scenario. And whilst some things are clearly.

There were many instances that are not, there are many instances where you contributed towards a reaction or you contributed towards an outcome. You might not have been wholly responsible, but taking no responsibility, you learn nothing. Taking no responsibility. You Sidney doesn't show any vulnerability that's for sure.

And if it's a scenario or a situation where it's with a colleague or a team member or a client or whatever, it might be. Communicating in a fashion that allows them to be welcomed into both of your failure. You never really resolve it. It's an end scenario that you never going to get to a conclusion. I struggle with people like that and identified those kinds of people in my organization earlier on.

And I learned the hard way with those people. So I've had a few of those people in very senior positions within the business and. The amount of negative impact they have on the business far outweighs the value, even in what they can do on a daily basis. And you need a weed liters out of your business.

Cause they not leaders. They're in it for the wrong reason. They in it for ego, they're in it for accolade. And if that's what they in it for, then they're the wrong people. They're the wrong people for the company. They'll create layers between you and your team and the more layers they create, the less likely you're going to hear the great ideas and the less likely you can identify the great talent that might be right under your nose, that you're not exposing and promoting and building and encouraging and all these things that are so important.

That's the bad stuff. That's

Rosie Ward the. Oh, absolutely. And how often, and I don't care what the industry is. I see it all the time where, oh, that person behaves poorly or isn't aligned with our core values or has collateral damage around them, a whole bunch of carnage, but they're a fill in the blank. They're a great salesperson or a great lawyer or a great physician, or they're good technically at whatever their industry and skill is, but they are.

Horrible in their interpersonal skills, which used to be called soft skills, which I love that I'm now starting to hear emotional intelligence and empathy and communication. And self-awareness instead of being soft skills are now either essential skills or power skills. I'm like, yeah, it's about time because if you don't have those man.

Jethro Lloyd: I fought against the use of the word of culture, because I grew up in a country that was rich in culture, and I felt it was such an insult to talk about a culture in a company. When I came from a country with 11 official languages and so many cultures and hundreds of years and thousands of years of creating these cultures.

And we was like, oh, let's start our company culture. And we're a three-year-old business and this is our culture. But I understand now why people emphasize it in the early days. And what was so important because it was beyond venues. It was at the most simplest level. How are we going to treat people? Are they going to feel welcomed or they're going to, and when we talk about safety, now, obviously it has negative connotations because obviously people have made a comedy about it, that everybody, nobody must be criticized.

And it's not true. What we're saying is that that is the balance in everything that you're doing, the way you're treating people. I won't lie in the early days, our fought against it. I was like, there's no place. It's about the deadline. It's about the. But then all of a sudden, you look in the mirror and you don't have the right people in your team anymore because the really good ones that have all of this and believe in all of this, they don't want to stick her out.

They don't want to be around that kind of environment, because there are lots of people that believe in this and are successful because of it, which is also important too.

Rosie Ward Oh, for sure. For sure. And you think about it. If you turn on any kind of business publication or HR publication, the buzz phrase of 2021 has become the turnover tsunami, but the reality is you are seeing that really good, thoughtful, talented people.

They want to be in an environment that allows them to thrive and allows their growth and let lets their gift shine. They don't want to be in an environment that's hierarchical that has a bunch of ego that has no psychological safety that doesn't have purpose. And so you're seeing that the organizations that have invested in their culture, in their leader, that, that are more than just about making a profit that are really conscious and intentional are attracting.

The people that you want in your organization. So let's, if your organization isn't, isn't tending to that, you're, you're going to be hurting big time. Um,

Jethro Lloyd: and I think this is the first sort of generation, maybe in the last 15 years where people are looking at organizations and saying beyond like making a beverage or printing documents, whatever your company's purposes beyond that, what else are we here for?

Because we spending Monday to Friday, the bulk of our day. In a place. I want to know that while I'm here, I'm going to maybe do something good. Or while I'm here, I'm gonna make a great friend or learn something new as businesses. We can fight with each other till we blue in the face who pays the most and who gives the best benefits and all this good stuff.

That's linear. It's then important stuff that you referred to Rosie that in the absence of you thinking about that, then you don't differentiate. But more importantly, you're not going to attract people because that's what they asking. So these are important things actually, because the world needs it.

Most organizations are thinking about it, but I always get sometimes the sense that they thinking about it because somebody says, they go to think about it. It's like a ticking over box. And I think the one thing that I've come to realize is the good thing about the new generation is they can see through your.

Rosie Ward It's a very much a good thing. And I've been saying for years that with transparency and social media wrong or indifferent, that organizations can't hide their dysfunction anymore, you can find out pretty easily. Like what does it really like to work? They're not the smoke and mirrors that might be on a website or some PR campaign, but what's it really like to work there and your savvy talented, smart.

People are going to do their homework and go, do I really want to go there? Maybe it's not worth it. Or if it turns out you're your authentic and legit. Yeah. Right? Like this place is real. So here we go. So I want to transition if you're up for it. I have a short section of quick questions that just the first, first off that comes to your mind, just to show a little more of your human side.

If you're.

Jethro Lloyd: I'm going to try my best. Cause the first thing that often comes to my mind is cucumber or avocado. Cause those are my safe words. So I don't know if it says,

Rosie Ward okay, if I hear cucumber avocado on those, your safe word. I love it. Okay. Fill in the blank. Living authentically is

Jethro Lloyd: it's something that I strive

Rosie Ward for daily when the world is presenting an opening, but you don't feel like showing up as a leader.

What do you do? Make

Jethro Lloyd: sure that. The people that I trust around me and the company can show up for me.

Rosie Ward What's something people would be surprised to know about.

Jethro Lloyd: I think they often surprised when they see that I lack the same things as them that are fairly simple or simplistic, whether it be just the enjoyment of going to see a movie or whatever it is.

Because again, because you're in a position, they perceive that on a people who doesn't do that. I think they quite enjoy it when I do something that they don't perceive that I would enjoy it. I get stuck in or involved with them at a level that they would never expect your

Rosie Ward favorite go-to. Oh

Jethro Lloyd: top gun gladiator.

I think all the ones with the underdog kind of rises up and makes it through figure something out is nothing better than eighties movies because of the cool montages, where they got a tray, the Rockies, the movie, what was the one Rocky, where you went to Russia and he's lifting bags of corn and the Russian guys on the best science of the eighties and whatever it is.

I think those movies are always great because I think there was something about those movies that were very. It was people that were focused on getting something right. And everybody around them. And everybody, part of that was in the same with the same objective. And they worked hard and they struggled and they fought and they argued and they fell out and fell back together and they cried and they had losses, but it's, I think it's an overwhelming success.

Just the ability to succeed. So those are my go-to movies, gladiator. It was obviously very sad, but he lived up to the promise. He did. He, he never gave up. So those are my go-to your go-to. Probably anything from a queen. We are the champions, any of those kinds of, they had such great uplifting lifting music.

I think that's why it's played at all ball games and the likes of cause. It's awesome. So that would be my goatees. What's

Rosie Ward something

Jethro Lloyd: you can't live without. I hate to admit it for probably the internet access to the internet at this stage, but on a real level, I probably could not live without my family.

I couldn't do it

Rosie Ward some and your ordinary daily life that makes your heart happy.

Jethro Lloyd: Yeah, a hundred percent. My kids I've got young kids. My daughter's nine. My son is 12. They still have that very cool age with the amazing nuggets, all these great sentences that the greatest writer in the world could never come up with a sentence as good.

And it's perfectly timed as your children and what they do for sure at dinner and that singular sentence that never has said you feeling. This sentence I've ever heard in my life, the best understanding of something, this explanation or something. That's probably what I love the

Rosie Ward most. And last but not least.

What are you grateful for right now?

Jethro Lloyd: I'm grateful for so many things. So that's a one hour podcast answer. Unfortunately, I was talking to a colleague of mine in the UK person that I do business with and we were talking through, I hadn't spoken to him for a while. And how's he been the first question everybody's asking each other off to 18 months.

How was it to you? Did you survive? Did you make it? And him, and I really realized that no matter what, as educated people as people. Employed and working in business and living in good homes in good areas or whatever it is. There is so much to be grateful for. It would be immoral. To put it down to that one thing.

You've got great family and you've got great work colleagues. I work with some of the best people and they give me joy every day, getting on the phone with them for the, for the seven 30 in the morning. Hey, what are we going to do today? Kind of event without burning the team in South Africa, Brazil, I'm working with my team here locally in the United States.

They're enthusiastic. They're excited. They solving problems. They want to do better. They want to do more, whatever it is. I'm a lucky man. And besides the joy of your family and your friends and the things that you have to look forward to, all the things that you plan, go see this. I'm going to read that book.

I'm going to watch that movie. That's grateful if I was being completely shallow. I'm grateful that the last James Bond, no time today. Excellent. So as a James Bond fan, I'm very grateful that the Hollywood didn't mess this one up because they tend to. So I'd like to say that on record, that I'm very grateful that no time to die was an excellent James Bond.

And I feel good about it, but besides that, obviously it will be important stuff. So I'm very grateful.

Rosie Ward Good. We'll have to, we'll have to add it to the movie going agenda. So that's fantastic. So I have one last question that I want to ask you in closing. If you could challenge leaders everywhere to practice one behavior that would create more human workplaces and equip everyone to show up as a leader, regardless of their role, what would that be

Jethro Lloyd: as leaders?

My biggest OSC is that we start listening. And listening again before we start acting. I think a lot of leaders think that they listening and they act accordingly, but I don't think you need to listen to one conversation. You listened to a few. And when you think you've understood it, you need to listen.

Again, there are far too many leaders that I'm watching that I aspire to be, that I see them losing track of what they really set out to be. And what they set out to do. And obviously the more successful they become, the more notoriety they gave them all they observed and watched the, whatever it is. I almost think there's a point at which I feel that they're not listening anymore.

They're not listening to their teams. They're not listening to the markets, the client, the lax, they're all. So I think it's listen, but stop again and listen to them all before making a decision before acting and think about whilst the world expects us to. Did everything right? To be perfect in our understanding of the changes that are being presented to us in perfect, in understanding every human challenge or variety, whatever it might be.

I think it's important that if you're listening and at least you showing that you care enough to listen, you don't have to be. But you listening and you're listening with a genuine ear as opposed to I'm listening. Cause again, like I said before, it's my checkbox. This is my time to listen. I think the world will be a better place.

I think people would be happier at work and I think we would be more successful as a society if we got this right. So listen again, this is for the third top, before you do something and then listen again, and maybe that's what I'm saying is continue to listen. It's not a single moment in time that we're now listening.

And if we don't listen again off.

Rosie Ward I love that. I love that. I so enjoyed our conversation and I just love everything that you stand for. I love the message you're doing. I love it. So it's just, I'm super excited to get this out there to everybody. So thank you for your time. I'm Rosie ward, and this is show up as a leader to learn more head over to people forward network.com and of course hit that follow button.